Beethoven 9 - Your Two Cents
This is your opportunity to tell us and your fellow concertgoers about the performance of Ives and Beethoven this weekend.
"The Beethoven 9 Legacy"
Few works of art in the history of man have drawn people to it the way Beethoven Symphony 9 has. I'm always struck when I read performance reviews and critical writings about the piece from the past how different every one of the authors perceives the impact of the piece on their lives and the lives of mankind. Is it the expectation we have for the gentle introduction of the "Ode to Joy" theme that brings the listener to it? My take quite frankly is that the other movements are the key. Presenting a relentless and somewhat heavy-handed reading of the first movement followed by the 19th century version of minimalism in the second movement creates an enormous tension in the concert hall. The sheer bliss of the slow movement must be of the most treasured moments in all music. So loving, so gentle. What does the piece mean to you? What do the movements mean to you? How does the nature of the individual movements impact your experience of the whole? What is the legacy of the symphony in your mind?
-Michael Christie
"The Beethoven 9 Legacy"
Few works of art in the history of man have drawn people to it the way Beethoven Symphony 9 has. I'm always struck when I read performance reviews and critical writings about the piece from the past how different every one of the authors perceives the impact of the piece on their lives and the lives of mankind. Is it the expectation we have for the gentle introduction of the "Ode to Joy" theme that brings the listener to it? My take quite frankly is that the other movements are the key. Presenting a relentless and somewhat heavy-handed reading of the first movement followed by the 19th century version of minimalism in the second movement creates an enormous tension in the concert hall. The sheer bliss of the slow movement must be of the most treasured moments in all music. So loving, so gentle. What does the piece mean to you? What do the movements mean to you? How does the nature of the individual movements impact your experience of the whole? What is the legacy of the symphony in your mind?
-Michael Christie
18 Comments:
In comparison of the more contemporary composers played recently, I enjoyed the Charles Ives pieces much, much more than the recently played John Adams. I hope for the chance to hear George Anteil's Ballet Mecanique played live at least once, but for some reason John Adams does nothing for me. The acoustics of the hall has changed considerably, and in the third piece, the woodwinds and flute were a bit overpowering to the strings. It seems like sound bounces back towards the front in a much more intense way than it does coming from the stage. Mr. Berginc's trumpet was a wonderful accompaniment as he played from the lobby. Maybe a music hall full of people affects this more.
Beethoven's 9th seemed a bit rushed in the first, and especially the second movement, and then the music seemed flat in the third as if the orchestra "ran" too fast at first, and it took the third for them to get their breath back so that they could take on the fourth movement. It has to take a lot out of a musican to play a 65 minute piece like this. This should not be attacked like a sprint, but more like a marathon. The forth movement was sweet, and the Phoenix Symphony Chorus really shined throughout the evening.
All day I have looked forward to hearing Beethoven's Ninth. And after the outstanding performance of Mahler's First Symphony last week, I arrived at the hall with high expectations.
Thanks to Mr. Christie for including a third Ives piece in the first half of the program. All three were delightful, well played, evoked feeling, and were a good prelude to the "main event". If anyone has any recommendations for good recordings along this line of Ives work, please post. I would like to add these works to my CD collection.
Unfortunately, when Beethoven's Ninth started, I realized that my program did not have a "Keeping Score" sheet inserted. Darn it. Oh well, I'll survive, and besides, I know this piece. Fine. The tempo of the first movement seemed a hair quick, and didn't give me the sense of anticipation I was expecting. That's fine, the second movement is coming, and I'm looking forward to the emotional tension.
After the second movement, I found myself disappointed. I didn't experience the tension I expected. In fact I felt sorry for the Orchestra members, because the tempo here seemed entirely too fast. Tension is not achieved by playing quickly (unless you were a violin or viola player -- I bet their arms have quite a bit of tension after that exercise). Rather, tension should be achieved by the way the music is played. Listen to John Gardiner's recording of this piece on the Archiv label, as well as Karajan's recording on the Deutsche Grammophon label to get a sense of what I mean.
Third movement -- a sense of the blahs. An emotional let down. It felt as if the orchestra was tired after going 10,000 miles an hour playing the second movement, like a runner having to stop and catch their breath after a long steep climb. Most unfortunate, since there should be a tremedous amount of feeling here, and for me there wasn't.
Fourth movement. Again not quite what I was expecting. No drama, no "I will overcome" feelings, no sense of triumph, no desire to jump out of my chair at the end of the performance. What a letdown after what I experience listening to the Mahler last week.
Of the soloists, I'd have to say that the Baritone and Soprano were the most enjoyable, although they did seem often overpowered by the orchestra. Mr. Christie did do a good job of keeping the Orchestra and Chorus in balance, though, and it was definitely noted where Mr. Christie "hushed" the violins so that the woodwinds could be better heard, which was much appreciated. In all fairness, keeping everything in balance is difficult with a work of this magnitude.
To the members of the Orchestra, you played your hearts out and it showed. You gave us what you had to give within the confines of what you were directed to do, and that effort is why I stood at the end of the work and applauded. What you did is very much appreciated.
But when all was said and done, I left feeling disappointed which is unusual for me. When I got home, the first thing I did was reach for my Karajan recording and play the whole thing. Felt much better after I did that.
Mr. Christie, could you please explain why you made the choices you did conducting the piece that differ from the choices that other conductors may have made (in other words, where did you put the Michael Christie stamp on the work), and what it is that you felt your interpretation brought out in the movements of the piece? I have enjoyed many other things that I have heard you conduct, but this one left me wanting and I very much want to understand why in a way that I am having difficulty quantifying at the moment. Other constructive insights would be greatly appreciated.
First of all let me say that I have heard this symphony at least five times live and found this performance to be my most enjoyable opposite to what I have read here previously it seems. I don't know but I found no fault in the performance. The fourth movement gave me a rush that I always get from this piece from listening to it since I was 6 years old! I didn't find it rushed I found the tempo to be very accurate and at the end I was very exhilarated, in fact, I found it hard to fall asleep after getting home, the melody kept running over and over in my head.
This is the first time I have ever sat so close to the stage, I was in the second row on the left of the orchestra looking at the stage, and was rather apprehensive about this but I loved it! I could see every violin being 'plucked' and I felt you, Mr. Christie, put your heart and soul in this piece, I was right with you during the whole journey! Every movement was a joy. I brought my Mother and she thought it was super, a great performance, she was very moved. I also thought the soloists were wonderful! I had tears!
As for the Ives pieces, I also enjoyed those very much. Not being an Ives fan it was wonderful to get a taste of his work. I loved the last piece and was glad you included it also. Mr. Berginc's trumpet was a wonderful idea coming from the lobby. How did you ever think of that?! Loved it!
I also fully enjoyed your conversation/interview with the soloist on stage, very informative and interesting. Hope to see more of this. I find it fascinating to get the inside scoop from the performers and musicians themselves.
Enjoy your blog very much, thanks for starting it. I will continue to read the fascinating articles you write.
Thanks for a very enjoyable evening.
I do have one simple question, on the screen above I noticed numbers, was this like a clock to let you know the length of each piece or something quite different?
Best Wishes,
Sharon
Anonymous has some interesting comments -- are they two different people? Must be. My concert attendance is with another person - so. I loved the Ives -- tho I would have enjoyed having the poem - crossing the bar - and the psalm words - appear on the screen above. Curt Sather plays a mean organ and that was a real treat. Sorry not to see anything about him in the program. Acoustics aside, the chorus was great even though I couldnt understand all their words. And my concert buddy enjoyed the 9th much more than the Ives. He sort of waited until after the intermission to really get into it. Again, the singers were super. Even tho the soloists were WAY BACK and hard to see.
The performance of Beethoven's 9th on Thursday night was special. The orchestra played with an intensity and precision that was captivating and even transporting. The soloists were magnificent. I have rarely felt as emotionally absorbed in a performance as I was this night. In the end, I was emotionally drained, but thankful for a memorable experience. This is one the Symphony should be proud of. Thank you all.
Earl in Tempe
To the audience member who asked about Ives recordings. I don't know if works like "The Unanswered Question" have gotten strong recordings or even if they could be captured effectively on tape. However this is a wonderfull recording of a string quartet played by the Emersons. Well worth checking out.
www.iclassics.com/productDetail?contentId=1735
I have no particular complaints about the performance of the 9th - I enjoyed it very much. But I thought the Ives pieces were a massive waste of time. I bought a ticket to see Beethoven - a full orchestra, an exciting piece. Clearly by itself worth the cost of a ticket. But all I heard for the first half hour was very boring choral music with no orchestra at all. The concept of the third piece with the instruments everywhere was interesting, but it sounded unbalanced in practice. And the result of that wasted half hour was another delay of half an hour for intermission, thus pushing the concert to 10pm. While I personally did not turn into a pumpkin, there were a number of children - your future listeners nurturing a love for Beethoven, we can only hope - napping through the 4th movement. A shame in part because it was so unnecessary.
Thanks for these great comments. I love the detail. I don't have copies of the recordings referenced above with me here in Phoenix this time but I know of them.
I'll be wide open and put as much as I can on the table so that going forward people can understand what I'm thinking.
What I am trying to balance in the selection of tempi is my perception of what the composer is trying to accomplish with the acoustical reality of our performance space. If the opening movements felt too fast it wasn't my intention to allow a taut tempo to interfere with the main objectives you've clearly articulated. All of which I am seeking as well. I think honestly that nerves from all of us bumped the tempo up and will probably settle back for the rest of the weekend.
With my arrival this season and the unfortunate, built in absences throughout the calendar the orchestra and I are trying very hard to come to terms with my expectations and their distinguished past leadership's expectations. It has been pointed out to me how much the playing style required by my predecessors differs from what I am asking for when we switch from composer to composer. Now that the hall isn't as dry as it recently was, the density and forcefulness of sound required to make anything sound ok in the past isn't necessary as the default option in a performance. In front of the public eyes and ears we are having to slowly transform a playing style that was required for decades. I'm not asking the orchestra members to abandon that gutsy sound but to add more options to our palette. Coming to an understanding of what those options are and allowing for them to be integrated into their own playing style is the path that we are starting to walk down. I very much would like us to be able to access different tones, colors and articulations from one composer to the next. Not to make excuses for anything that you hear in a performance that doesn't quite jive but I liken it to cleaning. Sometimes dust gets kicked up when you start cleaning something. My colleagues are being real pros about all of this. Imagine the changes a player who entered the orchestra twenty years ago or more is observing! Video possibilities, a communicating music director, and an evolving style that requires a different approach from one composer to the next. Mahler did sound great last week and we were all so pleased that on common ground we will be a force to be reckoned with. On ground that my predecessors didn't emphasize or interpreted completely different we will of course diligently and patiently work to create an identity the whole ensemble understands and executes with similar aplomb.
I hope this gives you some hope that this is all being very carefully thought about and I can assure you that my colleagues are working as hard as ever. When you consider that any one of our programs happen on just 3 two and half hour and one two hour rehearsals and the repertory can be as different as night and day from week to week we are tackling some major topics in very short spans of time. Again no excuses here just a process.
I'm glad you're out there listening and hope that the additional colors on our palette will bring you great joy in the future.
It'll be interesting to see how the piece feels after our four performances this weekend.
I am always happy to learn something new from attending a live performance. In the case of the ninth, I was surprised to see the melody in the third movement carried by the violas, especially nice considering they seldom get any respect. Beautifully played!
I brought my thirteen year old grandson to this, his second concert, and he raved about it even the next day. What a great piece of music to inspire a youth.
I am also amazed at the Symphony Chorus. What fabulous discipline and attention to direction! They were as good as I have ever heard.
The performance took me back to the Czech Republic celebration of their recent independence and their choice of the Ninth for that occasion. It is a huge piece of music.
As one of the singers, I came to enjoy and appreciate the Ives' Psalm 90 more and more as my familiarity with its structure and musicality grew. A friend in the audience last night--a fine jazz pianist--thought that including the Ives pieces helped make it a great program. Kudos to Mr. Christie for having the courage to include these works and broaden our perspectives.
For those looking for recordings, the Charles Ives society has a webstite that lists a number of cds that are available:
http://www.musicweb.uk.net/Ives/03_Recordings_Main_Menu.htm
B1TPSC
thank you for your explanation of how things work, Michael Christie. That really helps. and youre right - the Mahler was quite a wonderful experience. one thing you havent talked about is the difference between hearing/seeing a live orchestra or listening to a CD. Live is both a visual and an aural experience. when you get a chance let us hear your thoughts on that. I know you care about visual because you commented Thursday night on the screen being high enough so it wouldnt bother us if we dont want to look at it.
I too was very dissapointed with the way the 9th went. I could harldy wait to hear this symphony, which arguably is the most famous work ever written. Even so, the hall was not at full capacity (on thursday it looked about 70% full.)
I am disappointed also that everything was blown through so fast and all of the nuance, phrasing went right out the window, so to speak. Were you nervious Mr. Christie? After the concert I too went home and played my other 3 CDs of this work and found the mood and tempi more to my liking. The first and 4th movements all were slower than that of last nights (Thurs.) and more importantly I could understand the meaning of the music and direction. THe PSO redition was too pushed "felt" hurried.
Skip to the 4th movement. What happend there? About the videos, the preconcert lectures, the intermission talks, etc... It's fine if you want to try all of this, but farnkly it's about the music! That comes first!! You can do all the video stuff that you want, but next time, let's stick to the basics first, then add the bells and whistles.
I still enjoyed hearing the PSO musicians, and honestly I know it's not fair to compare Christie to the others that have been there. I know he's young, maybe he will need some more additional study to pull this one off next time around.
The Mahler was great, (seems like an easier piece to conduct?? not sure...
I am a faitful concert attendee. I will be back next year for sure, but hope that there is less talk and more walk.
There were several things I noticed about the performance last night (Friday). First, diction. The chorus has a great sound, but unfortunately that hall makes what they're singing a sea of vowels. I couldn't understand what they were singing. Second, upper strings, pretty much throughout, were too loud in my opinion. In general, I got the feeling that the winds were overpowered. The frustrating thing about that is that the strings weren't even that loud. Something is funky about that stage. It seems like there are some real dead spots. Risers maybe? I don't know. For reference, I was in the balcony. I refuse to cast judgment on the performance because I understnad the situation and the things Maestro Christie is tweaking. It wasn't the best performance, but You know what they say about Rome - "It wasn't built in a day."
Mr. Christie,
Thanks for your response to my comments above -- I am the second anonymous poster. I very much appreciate you taking the time to respond as you have. I think this kind of dialog is definitely a positive thing.
I can certainly understand "opening night jitters", particularly in light of the fact that both you and the orchestra are still learning not only from each other but about each other. Add to that the challenges of the newly revamped hall, and the reality of following in the footsteps of a Maestro that gave both the audience and the orchestra the benefit of over 40 years of experience and so many fond memories (both on and off the stage), and the fact that you are under a bit of a microscope at the moment...well, some of us understand that this is going to take some time. That's okay.
Rest assured that even though my expectations are high, I am confident that you and this organization as a whole are worthy of them. I already know that the orchestra is. I've been a season ticket holder for a long time, and I have seen and heard what they "bring to the table" when things are good and when things are not so good. They care very deeply about what they do, and it shows. That's one of the main reasons that people like me keep coming, year after year after year.
I not only attended the Thursday evening concert, I took it upon myself to purchase an additional ticket for the Friday evening concert. Of course every performance is different, but I felt the need to attend again to see if things would be different and hopefully better and more fullfilling for me. And in light of your comments, I was curious to see what would change given that Friday evening would be the second performance of this particular program. I also wanted to pay particular attention to my expectations given that this piece "speaks" to me on a number of levels. Here goes...
Entered the concert hall. Made darn sure this time that my program had a "Keeping Score" sheet. Noticed the extra camera on the stage. I was hoping that this concert would include the video portion that was not present during the Thursday evening performance. While I did notice the delay that other posters have mentioned (yes, the delay is occasionally annoying), seeing you from the front while conducting was a definite positive for me -- the combination of what I saw along with the message I was getting from the music helped me to understand some things about my experiences, both good and bad. I'll comment on some of these below.
First of all, the Ives. I enjoyed these three pieces when I first heard them, but hearing them a second time cemented it for me: I really like this music. This is good stuff. My hat is off to the chorus, for giving an even stronger performance than what I heard on Thursday. I felt that there was a more balanced contribution from the flute section at the rear of the hall, the offstage percussion was bang on, and I can't say enough about Mr. Berginc's trumpet playing. Charles, whether you are on stage or outside the hall, you bring something special every time that I have heard you, and I am really glad you are here. And a heartfelt thanks to those posters that have suggested Ives recordings to listen to. I will definitely be placing a CD order here in the immediate future. Thank you for sharing.
Moment of truth time -- Beethoven's Ninth, first movement. Held my breath at the start. Ah...much better. More evenly paced, and I got a sense of anticipation. Still not quite exactly what I was looking for, but a great improvement over what I heard on Thursday. So what was I looking for? This is easier to explain with the second movement.
Second movement -- yay! It's not a horse race this time! And the music is very well played. But something is missing. There is tension present, but it lacks a certain edge, a certain bite. Hmmm. So what is this elusive feeling that I am missing? For me, Beethoven has a way of expressing a feeling of defiance, a way of raising his fist in the air and saying to the very fates themselves that, "you will not defeat me, you will not triumph." But it is more than that. It is most definitely not angst, a component of which I thought I saw you trying to project while conducting this movement on more than one occasion. It is not rage at injustices done, although some of that is present. It is not anger, although elements of that are present too, and it is not solely about pride, even though a strong sense of self-worth in the face of detraction is a component. It is about passion for being true to oneself. It is about being able to dig down deep into yourself in the face of certain physical defeat, seeing your opponent about to overtake you and finding *something* to give you just enough energy to prevail even though the price you will pay for tapping that energy is great and the currency you will pay in is pain. But there is still more. To quote Melville, "He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it." Beethoven understood this emotional state at a fundamental and supremely human level, and some of this is there too. Or at least, I feel that it should be and it wasn't. And when I have heard a performance that captures this, it somehow seems right. Listen to the Karajan recording and I think you'll understand some of what I mean.
Third movement -- beautiful music. Not an emotional let down like Thursday night. This was engaging and came much closer to providing the proper contrast for the second movement, or at least for what my expectation for the second movement should have been. Part of my perception here has to do with the contrast between this movement and the second movement. If just the right degree of emotional pressure is present in the second movement, then the beauty and tranquility of most of this third movement becomes even more poignant. It is the difference between: (a) standing in a peaceful meadow when all is well, and (b) being tired and beaten and discovering yourself at the base of a natural oasis with only the sound of running water for company -- knowing that you absolutely must take the time to enjoy this peaceful feeling because it won't last, because it never does, and that something (another battle?) will be here soon enough. With just a hint of delicateness in part of this movement, it would have been oasis time. What I heard was warm and wonderful, though, and I enjoyed it very much. One thing about the fanfare (around #40 in Keeping Score) -- this should be majestic and proud, and should be played in such a way as to make all within earshot take notice that something special is coming, something grand, and if you are the listener you won't want to miss it. Perhaps a little louder or with a bit more sense of attack would have helped here.
Fourth movement. Much much much better than Thursday night. The Chorus was delightful, there was good balance between the orchestra and the soloists, and nobody seemed overpowered. The cellos and basses (Keeping Score #47) were warm and wonderful. I didn't quite have the "goosebump" moment I was hoping for, but didn't miss it by much. Musicians, at the end deliver your message proudly, be it sung or played, and with an even stronger sense of majesty. Michael, I know they can do this. They've done it to me before. Ask them to do it. Let them do it. Make them do it. Then it will be goosebump time.
So, now that I've unintentionally written a novel, how did I feel at the end of the concert as compared to Thursday night? Thursday evening I felt unfulfilled. But Friday evening I was quite pleased. Wonderful, powerful music, that stirs the blood and the heart and the mind. Thank you Mr. Christie, soloists, and every single member of the orchestra and chorus for a memorable performance of a truly great piece of music.
One last thing I'd like to ask. Mr. Christie, Orchestra and Chorus members, your perspective and vantage point is different from those of us in the audience. I had a totally different experience between Thursday and Friday evenings. I would be interested to know what you feel you did differently, and how you felt at the time about what you were doing differently. Please give us your thoughts and share with us what you can. And again my sincerest thanks!
Did anyone else notice that the on screen image was about one half second behind the live action? In the projected image the conductor was as much as a full beat behind the orchestra.
It was also reversed - the conductor's image leaned right to cue the first violins, but the first violins are on the left... etc.
Maybe some fine tuning is in order.
Many thanks to all involved for the concert in Prescott. The program was absolutely brilliant. The continuity between the 3 Ives pieces and the Epic 9th was captivating. I must disagree with one of the other bloggers that the pace was too rushed. I really believe that when performing a Beethoven Symphony, pace is of utmost importance and Maestro Christie did an excellent job. I've attended 2 other 9th performances, one by the Pacific Symphony and the other by the L.A. Phil and this one was the most well paced of the 3. Many thanks and congratulations to all the musicians and choral members for a memmorable experience. Lest I forget, very big congrats to the 4 soloists.
I think "Keeping Score" is a great idea and look forward to its continued use and development. What are your thoughts on color coding the numbers to indicate other information regarding the performance, such as the end of a movement or end of the composition.
I attended the Thursday night performance and greatly enjoyed the Beethoven as well as the performance of the Ives' pieces.
The program notes for the Ives and Beethoven were somewhat disappointing. The Beethoven write up asserted that Beethoven was "obsessed" over good and evil. Perhaps he was obsessed, but the tone was somewhat of a post-modern philosophic air, suggesting that such obsessions are no longer relevant.
The Ives write up concluded with a quote stating that had Beethoven continued to compose, he would have evolved into a composer similar to Ives. Maybe, but just because Ives lifetime followed Beethoven on the calendar, does not support the notion that Ives compositions are "better" or "more advanced" than those of Beethoven. In fact, had someone ignorant of both Ives and Beethoven heard the performance on Thursday, he might have exclaimed just the opposite. Perhaps I missed the intent of the quote?
Those minor nits aside, the last few performances I have attended were most enjoyable, and I am very excited about this orchestra and its future. Keep up the great work!
As a member of the orchestra I am excited and encouraged to read the amount of thoughtfulness and experience that audience members bring to our concerts. Regardless of whether the comments praise or criticize it is satisfying, confirming and yes, inspiring to know that there is such active listening occurring. It bears mention then, that Maestro Christie should be applauded both for championing and participating in this forum. To me, this blog and his comments throughout represent a degree of consideration and reflection regarding the concert experience that can well serve The Phoenix Symphony and its audience.
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